Original Subject line: “Norman Cote“
Hello All,
I have quite a few questions to ask the evening. Being that I
live 40 minutes away from a
library, I hope that any of you would be glad to be my resources.
1) What sleeves are known to be used on a Norman cote?
2) Would a surcote be used?
3) What would a surcote look like?
4) What does a pelice look like?
5) What type of cloak would be used? (gored, rectangle,
etc…)
6) What type of trimming would be used on all? (embroidery,
etc…)
7) What type of collars (necklines) would have been used?
8) What would the headgear look like?
9) What would the shift look like?
10) Would there be any other type ofunderwear other than the shift?
11) What type of belt would be used?
12) What type of shoes and/or pattens would be used?
Last question….
for now 😉
13) Does anyone have pics and/or patterns for any of these?
Just so I
can relate answers to sight.
I have an idea of what I want, but all of the places I’ve
looked online has given me
conflicting information. This is so I get a clearer picture of things. 🙂 Also, I’m not all that
interested in a bilaut.
Thank you for all for your help!!!!
~ Kimberly
Message #804, February 16, 2003
Answer Set #1:
Yes, that is quite a few questions! So, here is a very brief and simplified answer. There are “yes, buts…” to most of these, but basically:
1) What sleeves are known to be used on a Norman cote?
What date? Generally anything from close fitting to wide hanging sleeves, attached “off the shoulder,” like a t-tunic, to any of the sleeves you see on a bliaut. The basic differences between the Cote and the Bliaut are that the bliaut is made of the best fabrics and is tightly laced, whereas the cote is looser fitting.
2) Would a surcote be used?
Probably.
3) What would a surcote look like?
Good question, there seem to be very few pictures to go by, mostly literary references. I suspect they look much like the brown, fur edged garment you’ll see Eowyn wearing in Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers, in the march of the of the people to Helm’s Deep scene.
4) What does a pelice look like?
Like a surcoat. The word just indicates a furred garment, and I suspect pelice and surcoat are interchangeable terms.
5) What type of cloak would be used? (gored, rectangle, etc…)
Half circle, cut in one or two pieces, attached either in front or on the shoulder.
6) What type of trimming would be used on all? (embroidery, etc…)
Geometric and foliage type designs, embroidered or tablet woven. Cotes are usually less decorated than a bliaut.
7) What type of collars (necklines) would have been used?
Keyhole and circular are the most common.
8) What would the headgear look like?
See the headgear files in patterns and articles on the 12th century garb page.
9) What would the shift look like?
Like the over dress, although overly long, tight fitting sleeves seem to have been fashionable.
10) Would there be any other type of underwear other than the shift?
Hose, and possibly linen draws, like those worn by men in the same period. See Cautery scenes in Rowena’s source pictures
11) What type of belt would be used?
For the Bliaut court dress a double belt of tablet weaving or similar, for a cote a simple leather belt.
12) What type of shoes and/or pattens would be used?
Fabric or soft leather “slippers”. I don’t know of any references to patterns in this period.
13) Does anyone have pics and/or patterns for any of these? Just so I can relate answers to sight.
Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/Rowena%27s%20Source%20Pictures/Comedies%20of%20Terence.jpg and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/Rowena%27s%20Source%20Pictures/Mary.jpg
[A]ll of the places I’ve looked online has given me conflicting information.
What a lot of the costuming books call a cote is the 13th century cote, which is plainer and cut with sort of “batwing” sleeves. That cote was superseded by the cote-hardie (tight cote) but preceded by the 11/12th century cote, which is cut more like the bliaut, but not laced tight.
I hope that helps.
~ Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #805, February 16, 2003
Answer Set #2:
1) What sleeves are known to be used on a Norman cote?
I think there are several different styles. I’ve used a straight rectangular, one that extends into a triangle below the elbow, and the quintessential sort of “boat-shaped” 12th century sleeve – the one that is tight all the way down the arm until just above the wrist, when it becomes a long hanging cuff with a curved bottom.
4) What does a pelice look like?
Again, several styles. Mine is basically a short tunic with elbow length sleeves. The bottom of the sleeves and hem are trimmed in fur.
5) What type of cloak would be used? (gored, rectangle, etc…)
Actually, half-circular seems to be common from what I can see. No hood.
6) What type of trimming would be used on all? (embroidery, etc…)
Various embroidery styles. From what I’ve found, the patterns seem to be repeating geometrics or simple curved motifs like circles or ovals with pointed ends.
7) What type of collars (necklines) would have been used?
I’ve seen standard circle with a front keyhole and circle with a keyhole along the shoulder; also ones without a keyhole.
8) What would the headgear look like?
Headrail draped over the head and the ends flung over the opposite shoulder; simple oval veil; veil and wimple is what I’ve seen.
9) What would the shift look like?
I make mine from the same pattern as my cotes, out of white linen. You could do the very tight overlong sleeve as well.
10) Would there be any other type of underwear other than the shift?
Knee high hose, probably, and I personally believe that women must have worn something similar to men’s braies, at the very least during their periods if not all the time. I wear men’s braies about, mid-calf length.
11) What type of belt would be used?
Probably a double wrapped one.
12) What type of shoes and/or pattens would be used?
I have a pair of thirteenth century turnsoles, basically just a simple ankle boot molded basically in the shape of my foot, no point on the toe. It’s my understanding that, slightly earlier, there would have been a seam up the front of the shoe from a point at the center of the toe. I’m basing that off what my shoemaker showed me… As far as pattens, he told me that there are no extant 12th century pattens that he knows of, but that the 13th century ones are very similar to 15th century styles, with the leather going over the ball of the foot, no ankle strap, and the sole having a raised area under the ball of the foot and the heel. My shoemaker is Master Drusilus (Dru Shoemaker), and I trust him to know what he’s talking about 🙂
13) Does anyone have pics and/or patterns for any of these?
Try lengthening the St. Louis shirt pattern at reconstructinghistory.com for the cote. The headrail is simply a length of white linen; mine is about 18 inches wide and about 6 or 7 feet long. You could even make it a bit longer.
~ Brangwayna Morgan
Message #807, February 17, 2003
As for shoes, no I don’t think there are any extant patterns from the 12th century, however, the Museums of London book Shoes and Pattens by Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard has line drawings of the shoes that they found on the digs and a couple of them are early 12th century and a couple more are mid/late 12th century. a little farther on in the book, they have some line drawings of what each piece looks like when laid out flat.
There is a gentleman
in the SCA(?) whose mundane name is Marc Carlson and if you go to his
website,
he has taken those drawings and made patterns from them which
you can download/print for
nothing. I believe his website is:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM
If not, a google search on “marc carlson” or even
“medieval shoes” should
get you there.
~ Rachael
Message #811, Febraury 17, 2003
Well, you see, I don’t know what date I want to be from. So far I’ve made a dress with kinda tight sleeves, a keyhole neck, and a gore on each side of my natural waist. This is what I was going to use for my cote. I was thinking that a surcoat would be the dress with the big sleeves (angelish), a keyhole neck, and perhaps more gores. My shift is an unbleached muslin with a round neck and no gores. So far all of my sleeves join my dress at mid bicep.
My persona is going to be of a widowed mother of 21, being that I’m a single mother of 21. I was born
in 1982 and my daughter was born in 2001 so I’d like to keep things on a similar path. Even my daughter’s persona’s name can be shortened to her name (Broinnfind or Broinnfhionn <BREE�-in>, scadian name, to Breena, mundane name).
For my shoes I was thinking of using the pattern from
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shoe/construction.html
I have no idea what to do for hosen, a pelice or braies. I have like a ton and a half of unbleached muslin for shifts and other various things, but I don’t know how to bleach it so it’s white or even if I can. I remember something about that for somethings if you bleach it, it turns yellowy.
Thank you for all of your help,
~ Kimberly
Message #813, February 17, 2003
That [shoe] pattern looks like it should be very appropriate. I’ve heard some people suggest doing the shoe in felt first, so you don’t waste leather if you don’t get the pattern the right size the first time…I tried making my own shoes once and decided that that was a skill I just didn’t really need, and decided to buy my shoes instead, but I know that’s not an option for everyone, as handmade period shoes can be quite expensive.
I have no idea what to do for hosen, a pelice or braies.
Hosen can be very difficult to fit. I’m not sure there is a good site on the web for patterns for them. After having been taught several times by different people, and trying and failing to make his own hosen, my husband finally resorted to buying a pair from Historic Enterprises and taking them apart to make a pattern. Even with doing that, he has found that the fit is very dependent on the fabric, and a pattern that fits with one fabric will not always fit with another. And he is a skilled tailor. He has gotten pretty good with knee high hosen, but the thigh high versions continue to give him problems, and he has not yet figured out how to fit a pair of joined hose.
A good substitute, so you have something to wear until you do find a pattern, is lady’s stretch pants, of the 95% cotton/5% lycra variety. Either stirrup or straight at the ankle works. They will be joined hose, which are probably not appropriate for women, but at least they will give a decent looking covering to your leg.
I had a webpage about braies, but now I can’t find it…Checking Google is interesting, as apparently there is a place in Italy called Braies…
Here is one
http://www.randyasplund.com/browse/medieval/chauss2.html
and another
http://www.larp.com/midgard/braies.htm
These are longer and looser than the ones I wear, though…The book “The Medieval Tailor’s Assistant” by Sarah Thursfield has braies patterns in it.
Hope these help.
~ Brangwayna Morgan
Message #811, Febraury 18, 2003