(original subject line: Introduction
Editor’s Note:
This thread is presented here in its entirety, but as the discussion ended up ranging over a number of topics, segments of the thread are also re-printed in the appropriate topic headings of this archive.
Greetings, All!
My name is Esther of Ennis Merth (aka Esther Reese), and I am returning to the SCA after an absence of ten or so years. I played pretty hard in An Tir before moving to Caid ten years ago, where a “mixed marriage” and terminal culture shock combined to make me “drop out”.
I moved to Ansteora (sp) a few months ago, and am slowly getting active again. I wanted to start over, having had my fill of Viking in An Tir, and I am thinking about having a Cornish persona in post-Conquest England. I am at “ground zero” with costuming for this period — I am pretty good with Viking, and Romano-British, Ancient Gaul, but this is kind of new! Any suggestions would be most gratefully accepted about where to start my research.
I love to embroider, but hate cross stitch. I am working on learning Opus Anglicanum style and techniques. Perhaps my proudest SCA accomplishment is winning the Janeltis Award for embroidery at one An Tirian 12th Night.
I am also interested in band loom weaving, and card weaving. (I have an inkle loom as well, but my research shows its use to be very, very late period, if at all.)
Yours In Service
~ Esther of Ennis Merth (aka Etain Karlsdottir) / Esther Reese
Message #830, February 23, 2003
(duplicate message at #838, Feb 24/03)
Try reading the
archives of this list, as well as Rowena’s article in the files section, and particularly Marguerie’s
webpage at:
http://jauncourt.i8.com
You’ll quickly
figure out that there is no single opinion or fact about how 12th century clothes were made, no extant women’s
clothes (and few men’s clothes),
and no accurate costume books concerning this
period. Most of us resort to looking at pictures of 12thC
artwork in books on Romanesque
art, sculpture, etc. Remember
there are also several styles of clothing present during this period, for different occasions. Most, if not all,
garments appear to be elaborated,
modified t-tunics. As far as we can tell, underdresses are nearly always plain t-tunic cut chemises, or garments
cut the same as the overgarment (except
perhaps in the detail of the sleeves).
It’s claimed that the modern tabletop inkleloom wasn’t invented till last century, but a kind of floor loom called inkle loom existed before this. There was a discussion of this very recently on the SCA cardweaving list I think. Anyway, the general idea is that if you can’t distinguish what kind of loom was used to make the piece, then no-one is going to be able to say “that isn’t period”. I’ve seen people wearing simple inklewoven pieces about at events. I can guess they are inklewoven because the pattern chosen is not a common one in tabletweaving. I am told some patterns made with an inkleloom are indistinguishable from tablet woven patterns. (however tablet weaving, although a little slower, is much more versatile). But the good news is, you can also use your inkleloom as a loom for tabletweaving. Anyway, there are a number of sites talking about these matters. I suggest looking in on the SCA tabletweaving list (on yahoo), and following the links on their links page.
I hope that helps you get started,
~ Teffania / Tiffany Brown
Message #840, February 24, 2003
[Look at Rowena’s article and Marguerie’s
webpage]
Will do!
[You’ll quickly figure out that there is no
single opinion… and no accurate costume books concerning this
period.]
Yes, I did get that far before I subbed to this
list. 🙂 Fortunately, I was Lady Companion to Her Excellency, Mistress Yseult
of Broceliande, who did this
period VERY well when she was active. I learned a lot about the embroidery of the period, even though I was bustling
around in Viking tube dresses and
amber.
And the corselet to help with the figure, is Pre-Raphelite, Norris perpetuated fiction? (*sniff*)
[there are also several styles…]
And classes and cultures.
[garments cut the same as the overgarment …]
Using placketed back
lacing to help form the figure?
[About inkle loom weaving]
I’ve seen early 17th century examples of “tape” looms,that make the sort of thing the modern inkle looms do. 🙂
There is a heaviness to card weaving, or a sturdiness perhaps, that I find you just don’t get with inkle looming. And the texture is wrong, too, but I’d rather see inkle weaving go by than bad commercial trim! (Just the bad ones, not all commercial trim!!)
[re: using an inkle
loom for cardweaving]
Providing the inkle loom is made of a hardwood. I’ve seen sad, bad things happen to pine inkle looms with
the tightness and strength of card weaving warped onto them.
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #841, February 24, 2003
The corselet to help with the figure, is Pre-Raphelite, Norris perpetuated fiction?
Yes, definitely.
[What about] using placketed back lacing to help form the figure?
Nope, side lacing. I’ve not been able to find any evidence for backlacing, but there is a fair bit for side lacing, and is not so much to control the figure but to make the fabric tight enough to show off the figure. Also no plackets as far as we can tell.
Welcome aboard Esther.
~ Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #842, February 24, 2003
I’d prefer not to wear modern underwear, but I’m a D cup, about a size 18? What are the best solutions for busty types other than a sports bra.
Oh — I have a horse. Any suggestions on that? (I’m really new when it comes to horses — I rescued him, he rescued me, and now we’re both trying to figure out what to wear to SCA events!)
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #843, February 25, 2003
I am a D cup and just around a size 14/16 –
you’d be surprised how supportive a well fit garment with side lacing can be! I have 2 bliauts that I wear
and I don’t feel the need for support garments
underneath – in fact, if I try, I
am uncomfortable because it gets in the way.
~ Katerina la Bisbetica / Denise Pulgino
Stout
Message #844, February 25, 2003
Oh, hurrah! 🙂 What weight of fabric do you
use?
And, erm, well, is there something of a controversy between
side laced and back laced?
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #845, February 25, 2003
If what I use is light weight, I line the
bodice – no documentation here, just what I do. It makes for attaching the skirt more easily too – it
encases the seam in the layers. Also, one is
supposed to wear a chemise under
the dress, so that helps. You do need something strong enough to take
the tension of the tightness the lacing will
cause. A chemise under the garment
also hides any peekaboo holes from the lacings.
Yes, the controversy over the side vs back is primary sources
versus poor secondary sources
misleading folks into thinking back lacing was done on bliauts. Besides, a side laced garment one can get out
of herself much more easily, and
into more easily as well – especially if you use whip lacing (proper term here?), which is more accurate. This is
as opposed to the more modern
cross lacing we do today – like on our shoes.
~ Katerina la Bisbetica /
Denise Pulgino Stout
Message #846, February 25, 2003
You should experiment with bias cut bodices and
side lacing. The combination can be quiet supportive.
If you don’t want to wear the figure hugging bliaut (these
were in fashion when twig like figures were all the rage) you could try tightly
lacing the chemise as the support garment and cutting the over dress looser.
(Note a Bliaut usually made of silk and tightly laced. It was worn by young,
thin, fashionable women. Those who were poorer, less fashionable, less thin or
less daring wore looser cut gowns which appear to have gone by the names cote, chainse, or sucknie)
~ Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #847, February 25, 2003
A lot of the costuming books follow Norris and his crowd and say that 12th century dresses are back laced. But 12th century liturature only mentions, and 12th century art only shows side lacing. I’ve been looking for any evidence of back lacing and so far not found any.
~ Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #848, February 25, 2003
Can you give me support for the side lacing — especially any literature
ones? Or direct me how to make the best search of the archive. I have a
friend who is especially interested.
Thank you!!!
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #850, February 25, 2003
That’s what I was thinking. I don’t have a figure that is thin and willowy — curvy, yes. Plush, even!
Ooo! I think I’m going to have to find out more about a sucknie. It just sounds… Great. 😀
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #852, February 25, 2003
Our main source for literary evidence is a thesis on Women’s clothing in the 11th and 12th centuries by Eunice Goddard. Anyone with a copy handy about to give the publishing details?
For some pictorial evidence try our file pages http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb Rowena’s Source Pictures
Nebuchadnezzar.jpg — available
and PleatedChemise.jpg — available
~ Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #853, February 25, 2003
Do take time to review the Bibliography while you are discovering the other cool stuff in the files section. They are under the database section and everyone can add books of interest! There’s a pretty nice list already started of books you can search for.
There are details on the Goddard book there. but the title is:
Women’s Costume in French Texts of the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries, 1927.
There is an authorized reprint available (see database – I don’t have details, but it might well be out of
copyright now? Anyway, as Nancy has pointed out, it perhaps should be more correctly titled Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries.
If you are not familiar with Inter Library Loan, please feel free to write me off line, and I would be happy to help you get started with that. It is awesome!!!
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #854, February 25, 2003
Katerine,
ILL is FABULOUS! As a freelance writer in a small Texas town, I live and die by ILL. 🙂
I will print out a copy of the bibliography and pour over it; this is kind of exciting. I like this style of embroidery very much, and now I finally feel like I can wear it. Towering over a petite, lovely baroness in one’s early 20s made “Norman” SO intimidating. But, I’m 36 now, and have gotten over a LOT of stuff, mostly myself. 😀
~ Esther of Ennis Merth / Esther Reese
Message #852, February 25, 2003
I must say that having spent my entire (well
almost) SCA career doing 12 c garb, I have never found true evidence that gowns were Only side laced-
since in most of my primary pics no lacing at
all is shown. Very rarely do you
see any. We must remember that it
was not the style in art to add such details.
So, I hold true that back lacing is acceptable. I have made
many gowns laced both ways, and
the back lacing is easier to get into and tighten up (ask my husband) and looks much the same from the front.
Granted, if you weren’t needing to make a seam down the back
of the fabric it makes good 12c
sense to put the lacing where there is a seam already. But I have found it pretty easy to split the back and add the
back gore into a seam line and
lace up the back.
Aenor
Also keep in mind that there isn’t just One pattern for
anything-look at the ubiquitous
bluejean.
Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan)
Message #860, Febraury 26, 2003