I know Rowena put up
a message a bit ago for us to be on the lookout for visual references for things that might be
a sukenie, and I really haven’t
had any luck with images yet. However, I did run across some Germanic literary references, mostly
13th century, to the sukenie,
which I have tentatively translated (feel free to join in!)
I have only one reference that may be from the 12th century,
from Parsival:
Parsival verse 145,
lines 1 – 4
vur suckenie und vur surkot
da vur nam er sin gabilot
des site man gein prise maz
sin vater was gekleidet bas
then the suckenie
and then the surkot
he then took his spear
thus he looked proper in taking his place
his father was dressed in this manner
Then several interesting 13th century references:
From Frauendienst, Stanza 1197 line 6 on (about 1255)
Ein suckenie gab si mir an
diu was von einem paltekin
die legt mir an die niftel min
I gave a suckenie
to him
to be on a paltekin (paltock?)
That I put on my dear.
From Frauendienst Stanza 1199, verse 3 on (about 1255)
ein hemde wiz daz was vil klein
diu hochgemuote schoene rein
eine suckenie het dar obe
von schlarlach dieu ze hohen lobe
was gefurrirt wiz harmin
diu veder niht bezzer kunde sin.
A white chemise
that was very fine
whose disposition was nicely clean
a suckenie worn over
of scarlet (the cloth, not color) of the highest quality
was furred with white ermine
no better lining can be found.
From Der heilige Georg, lines 1665 – 1669 (1231-1236)
vor den kunigen allen
den mantel liez er vallen
und die suckenie alsam:
man vant den der si beide nam.
Sinen schilt iesch er zehant
der wart im in den rinc gesant
Before the queen
all of them
allowed their mantles to fall
and the suckenie even so: (I think this means also)
one lays hold and takes on both sides
their shield each of them in their hand
and took their place in the ring
From Meleranz (1250- 1280)
Lines 643 – 648:
ein hemde wiz sidin
und ein roc phellerin
das selben ein suckenie rich
diu was bezogen meisterlich
mit einer veder haermin
diu kunde bezzer niht gesin
a chemise of white
silk
and a silk gown
the same being a rich suckenie
that was of masterly appearance
with an ermine lining
the likes of which can not be bettered.
Lines 879 – 882:
sprach si “biut mir die sukenie her”.
Mit guotem willen bot er
ir die sukenie do
die legt si an: er was fro
he said “bring the
sukenie here”.
With good will he carried
to him the sukenie there
he put it on, he was happy
Graf Rudolpf (?)
Suckenie unde kursit
Suckenie and a fur/skin
gown (compare kurs to cuir <French
– leather>
“Kursit” often is listed as item of clothing of an armored knight)
From Tandareis und Flordibel (1250 – 1280)
Lines 473 – 477:
von arabia ein pfelle rich
des vuort diu maget minneclich
roc und suckenie an,
ein veder wizer dan ein swan
was under der suckenie gezogen
From Arabia a fine
silk dress (fabric)
that together makes up my favorite
gown and suckenie,
a lining whiter than a swan
was underneath the suckenie
lines 11592 – 11598:
zwei linin gewant reine
unt zwo hosen von seine
diu maget valsches vrie
sant im ir suckenie
unde ein mantel scharlatin
diu veder was lieht hermin.
Two fine pieces of
linen clothing
and two hose from him
that made false freedom (see context of story)
sent to him a suckenie
and a mantel of scarlet (cloth not color)
whose lining was of a light ermine.
Tristan before 1250
zu beiden siten sich erbot
der mantel ab dem pferde
vaste hin uf die erde
roc und suckenie
die reine, wandels vrie
vuorte sie dar under
geworcht in Avalunder
on each side he
lifted up
the mantel onto the horse
holding it off the ground.
Gown and suckenie
were fine, free of faults
worn together beneath it (the mantle)
worked in Avalon
I’m thinking that each reference shows that the sukenie is an
overgown of sorts, often furred, perhaps the
sleeveless overgown over the tight
sleeved under gown, as there are references to both the chemise and a gown being worn in conjunction with
it.
What do y’all think?
Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #639, January 3, 2003
For a new lurker on
this interesting list, could you please explain what a sukenie is? Thanks.
~ Ingvild Josefsdatter / Nancy Spies)
Message #640, January 3, 2003
P.S. Ah, I see, upon
rereading the message, that sukenie is defined or a
definition is suggested. Is there perhaps an on-line picture
of this?
(I beg your patience with this die-hard Viking woman!)
~ Ingvild Josefsdatter / Nancy Spies)
Message #641, January 3, 2003
This is a good question – I have only found a few references to it in English costume literature – Davenport calls it the German word for surcoat, and I ran across it some months back while coming up with a list of German costume words for the GermanRen group because we wanted to start calling clothing by its correct Germanic name.
The second reference I came across was on a German web page that made garb for sale, not exactly science, but hey, it was a reference.
Recently I bought a German clothing lexicon “Reclams Mode und Kostumlexicon” (umlaut on the u in kostum) by Dr. Ingrid Loschek. It is a very nice general purpose costume dictionary that covers all time periods, but has been most helpful in my translations. She says about the sukenie:
“die Suckenie (mhd. von slaw sukno “wolltuch”, wollgewand des 12 jhs.; frz souquenie, sorquanie) uber dem Kleid und dem hemdgewadartigen rock des manns (cotte) getragenes obergewand im 13 1/ halfte 14 jh. in der spatzeit besonders der Frau. Die suckenie wird nicht eindeutig vom surkot unterschieden.”
My translation of the definition:
“the Suckenie (middle high german from the Slavic sukno “woolcloth”, a wool garment of the 12th century, also French souquenie, sorquanie) Overgarment worn over the gown and the chemise type gown of men (see cotte) in the 13th and the first half of the 14th century, and in the later dates by women. The suckenie is not umambiguously distinguished from the surcoat.”
I had thought that the suckenie was for women early on, but the definition above contradicts that, and indeed the Germanic literature I quoted all references men’s wear. This is what I thought the women’s suckenie looked like: (cut and paste link)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/Volliet-le-Duc/Bliaut9. jpg
Since there isn’t much data on the garment, and Rowena is wondering if it might be a working smock type garment, I’ve been looking at the word. Now you know everything about it I do! (which isn’t much more than before ne?) Looks like the word derivation suggests that we look further to the East for the
origin of the garment.
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #642, January 3, 2003
I’m thinking that each reference shows that the sukenie is an
overgown of sorts, often furred, perhaps the sleeveless overgown
over the tight sleeved under gown, as there are references to both
the chemise and a gown being worn in conjunction with it.
That’s the impression that I’m
getting, too; however, it seems to me that most of these references are to men’s clothes. Am I
correct, or is that a fault of the fact
that most of the narration is referring to the actions of a man? So is a sukenie a man’s, woman’s, or unisex
(perhaps I should say multi-sex, with
differing styles for each sex) garment?
Brangwayna
Message #643, January 4, 2003
A thought has been steadily growing in my mind regarding the way garments are named. What we and our Victorian forebares keep doing is taking a name for a garment found in the liturature and trying to match it to the cut of a garment found in the artwork. I think this may be an error of anachronistic thinking on our part.
I’m noticing that, as with the suckenie, the names of garments are derived from the name of a fabric, Bliaut – the name for a high quality fabric, often silk. Chainse, related to chainsel – a fine linen, Pelicon – a furred garment, and now Sukenie – a term for woolcloth.
Maybe a Bliaut, a Chainse, Pelicon and a Sukenie are (at least to start with) garments of very similar cuts, but of different quality and fabric?
Maybe it is during our period that the terms drift from refering to the fabric and become attached to the form or function of the garment?
I’m thinking that each reference shows that the sukenie is an
overgown of sorts, often furred, perhaps the sleeveless overgown
over the tight sleeved under gown, as there are references to both
the chemise and a gown being worn in conjunction with it.
Later,
yes I think you may be right Katherine. I think later on Pelicon, Sukenie and
Surcoat may all be interchangable terms, but earlier I think a sukenie may have
looked very much like a bliaut but be made of wool.
Katherine, in your database of fabrics and
colours are you including the type of garment named and the date of the
reference? I think that would be very interesting.
Rowena / Belinda Sibly
Message #651, January 5, 2003
As I checked the same Germanic references for
mention of bliaut yesterday, I noted that references to it seem to start as cloth, and then turn into an item of clothing. I also noted
the relationship of pelicon to the German
word pelz, for fur (never noted that before). I’m working on getting together a
list of the bliaut words similar to what
I did on the suckenie.
I did some looking for the word sukno in some of my Russian costuming sources, but haven’t had much luck yet. I think more looking is in order to see if we can find some Slavic literature that might help define this. It would be interesting if a sukno is the wool version of the bliaut and would make sense – but we will also need to see if there is a reference to a bliaut made of wool. I think the logical places to look for this word will be along the Adriatic corridor following the crusade routes.
Katherine, in your database of fabrics and colours are you
including the type of garment named and the date of the reference?
I think that would be very interesting.
Let’s see, I have the page number, fabric, color, date, jewel, metal, stone color and other. Looks like I haven’t tied it to a garment, but can easily do so. I think that is a good idea too!
~ Katherine
Message #653, January 6, 2003
Please forgive this interjection as I have just recently joined the group and am by no means an expert on dress/garb of this period (or any time period for that matter ;>) being a motivating factor for joining the group in order to learn). However I can offer the thoughts of one who was once a linguist.
Perhaps some of the
different terms are also due (in part) to regional difference in language and even dialect. For
example the French of the (British)
Normans is different from that of the mainland which is a
different dialect from that spoken in Paris (and other
regions) or Provence (langue
d’oc). Even today it takes a week or two (or even more) when one goes from France to Quebec or Cajoun Louisanna…or
Northern and Southern Germany or
different regions of Latin America. Words/terms/idioms(slang) for one item may vary greatly even within the same
“language” from region to region
or country to country. In Medieval times there would have (perhaps)
been even more differences owing to a lack of
mass media such as we have in these
mundane times.
As always,
~ Shannon (gclinton)
Message #645, January 6, 2003