This page will catalog various discussions regarding how to interpret images of clothing from the 12th century, and how that might be made and/or worn.
However, it should be noted that in the beginning, Yahoo Groups gave rather limited space for non-message content like photos and files. That means that the list owner, moderators, and users tended to remove previously posted items in order to make room for new materials. But, the discussions in the archive still contain the links, often referring pictures that are not there. I will try to find the images if I can, but in many cases the discussion simply began with a version of “look at this” and no source reference, so I cannot promise I will find them.
Pondering Cloaks and Sleeves
[Editor’s note: Neither of the links below to the image discussed works, and there is no other reference to what image it is or where it comes from.]
1. Message 94 — July 23, 2002
Tiffany Brown
“I was looking at the following photo: (from Gallina’s site, thankyou)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/2652367.html
“When I look closely i see that what looks like a draped sleeve is in fact a draped cloak (you can clearly see the trim going from behind the neck, dropping to be tucked behind the arm, then falling over the tightish sleeve).
“I’m wondering how many other portraits depict folded cloaks, instead of droopy sleeves. I know some definitely don’t, but some 11th century portraits do show a relatively tight sleeve, tight undersleeve, and loose cloak that could be taken for a sleeve.
“I’m also wondering from this depiction about a theory (that I can’t remember where I read it) that instead of double girdles, people wore a band of trim around their waist (fixed) and a loose hip belt. The trim of the belt is very similar to that around the neck, and the lower loop of the belt is quite different in shape. But at the same time, I’ve found a double girdle a much more practical way of wearing a tablet woven belt (and this is the most likely technique for a trimmed belt) than a single girdle. Interestingly the wearing of belts appears to have been chiefly a french thing. I’ve only found one, maybe two illustrations of english women wearing belts over Norman gowns.
“So, what do you think? (about anything and everything I’ve postulated above, and anything else that springs to mind).
“Teffania, trying to ask the interesting questions.”
2. Message 95 — July 23, 2002
Amanda Bowen
Unfortunately that URL didn’t work for me, but its still in my uncatalogued images folder (http://pbase.com/image/2652367) in case anyone else can’t pull it up.
>Re: draped sleeve vs. draped cloak
“The sleeve is tightish, but does droop a little bit (look at the very end of the wrist- it is quite apart from the draped mantle, as you can see) As for the cloak, what shape is that? I really would like to say half-circle, but from the way it is folded like a lettuce-edge at the bottom I’d really suspect that it was ovular in shape.
>Re: how many other portraits depict folded cloaks, instead of droopy sleeves.
“One or two from Moissac come to mind. I’ll try to find them so you can see. That would be an interesting survey to make, indeed.”
Katrine’s German Bliaut Pictures
[Editor’s note: Katrine originally set up her file on Yahoo Group as “Katrine’s Picks” with the description, “Changing images for discussion on the list.” As this post references one of the early ones, it is no longer there.]
“Looking at the bliautbox.jpg picture (under Files/Katherine’s….) The lady in the blue bliaut with white spots seems to have horizontal folds all the way down to her knees. I havent heard any theories of bliauts being laced so the horizantal lines are lower than the hipline. Any thoughts?”
~Aibell
Message #109, August 6, 2002
“There is one on a sarcophagus in Spain (where else?). Unfortunately, my picture isn’t just really good. I’ll try to load it some time this week.”
~ Jessamyn / Grace Morris
Message #110, August 6, 2002
Wrinkly torsos
Teffania said:
“at the risk of being howled down for sacrilege:
Perhaps we are just seeing a Romanesque way of portraying people, and there weren’t really wrinkles, or certainly not on most garments?
—
“Well, I myself went with that thinking for a while, and thus made my laced gowns smooth fitting. But as I look closer and with a new eye and mindset, I realize that very many dresses (if not all) show very careful wrinkle placement:
1. Below the breasts as if laced very tight (possible reasoning: to hold the breasts in place without the use of other garments)
2. Below the belly- emphasizing the full and roundness therein. (a fertile woman is a good woman!)
“What changed my perception is I started making 13th c braies for men and realized through the process that the reason for the fit of them was to emphasize the figure in a certain way- namely to make it look long and thin in the torso. And I realized that creating the fitted wrinkly gown does the same thing. I was amazed when I tried it on as to how thin it made my torso Look!”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #315, October 17, 2002
A Few Links From Austria
[Editor’s note: the links below are broken, but I will try to find the images from the descriptions Katrine provided. I’ve place this message here, rather in than on the broken links page because of the discussion *about* the images this intial post sparked. -EMK]
I’ve found some interesting on-line 12th century images and thought I’d put up a few links for you all to look at-
Saint Scolastica – from Legendarium austriacom, Initial S, 1185 – 1195
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7002301.JPG
I think the headdress is quite interesting.
Saint Mary Magdalene – from Legendarium austriacom, Initial T, 1185 – 1195
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7002302.JPG
Juliana from Nikomedia – from Legendarium austriacom, Initial B, 1185 – 1195
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7002304.JPG
Saintly woman – from Legendarium austriacom, Initial, 1185 – 1195
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7002310.JPG
Woman
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7002315.JPG
~ Katherine Barich
Message #320, November 8, 2002
“The hairstyles are carefully depicted (including that weird hairpiece) so that you can see the second one is a plait.
“I notice nearly all the shoes are drawn as black shoes with small lines or dots on them. I’ve seen others like this – I’m trying to collect 12th century shoe styles and put them together somehow- but anyway, they resemble a pair of King Phillip of Swabia’s extant shoes (12 Century) that are depicted in Nancy Spies great book on brocaded tablet weaving (Ecclesiastical Pomp and Circumstance) where thin tabletwoven bands brocaded with gold thread were sewn on the shoes, along the top of the shoe and then down the sides. I’ll send more details to people when I get organised and find out if I can easily get a copy of the original journal article on these shoes.”
~ Teffania / Tiffany Brown
Message #321, November 9, 2002
“Thanks for sending these! They are very similar to what I am making for the laurel ceremony. I found out you can get all those nice wrinkles across the chest from both side and back lacing. The trick is to elongate the torso a little bit. In some of these pictures it looks like they made the dress very long and pull it up over a belt that you can’t see. I tried this with cutting in at the hips and blousing just with the tailoring but it doesn’t
work so well.
~ Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #322, November 9, 2002
“If you use the side lacing you’ll find that the lacing tends to keep the bodice length “fixed” from the under arm to the hip, but that the weight of the fabric pulls the skirt down at the front and back. If you’ve cut the bodices fabric on the bais and added a skirt at the hip line it will tend to hang with a blousing effect much like what you are looking at.
~ Rowena / Brenda Sibly
Message #323, November 9, 2002
re: “weird hairpiece”
“I wonder just what that is? Maybe a rain veil? She has her fur covered mantle tucked in close like it might be inclement weather…”
~ Katherine Barich
Message #324, November 9, 2002
“I personally am still dubious with bias cut and separate skirts in the 12 c. I know that Chauses are cut on bias, but it doesn’t ring true *to me*. I understand this is one idea for the bliaut- might be, but my laced gowns actually look very much like the bliaut in the bodice. If I did pleat on a skirt I might get that look, but I am still going for that 1180-90 look of the tight bodice and smooth skirt.
I guess I need more time to get used to that idea before I try it!
~ Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #325, November 10, 2002
“I must admit that I don’t actually _like_ the separate skirt thing myself. There is evidence for it and it does work, but personally it’s not to my tastes. Bias cutting however is fabulous, especially with the smooth skirt.”
~ Rowena / Brenda Sibly
Message #327, November 10, 2002
Another Austrian Link
“One more Austrian image – this one is special – it is a family portrait, apparently quite intimate, dated about 1166 of Graef Siboto (Comes- Count Siboto) of Falkenstein. It is south German in provenance, and is now located in the Baviarian State Archive in Munich- It is rare for showing children and the wife has free flowing hair! Could someone translate the Latin please(?) or you will be stuck with me and the on-line Latin dictionary…!
titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7005437.JPG
[Editor’s note: A broken link. I will try to find another copy of this image. -EMK]
“The drawing details, written in German, say regarding the figures left to right:
“Son of Grafen Siboto, is holding a speech band which says:
(DIC VALEAS PATRI BENI FILI DICITE MATRI.QUI LEGIS HEC CARE N(OST) RI PETIM(US) MEMORARE HOC Q(UI)DE(M) CUNCTI MAGE TU CARISSIME FILI)
He is wearing a brown gown (rock) with a white patterned border, he wears a mantle with an agraffe and red legwear.
“The Grafin, wife of Grafen Siboto, has long curly loose hair with a (most interesting) red coif. I love this look! She is wearing a violet gown (Rock) with and agraffe as well as a a mantle (called here a Heuke)which is a red diamond pattern with stars and circles. Also showing are the shoes. Not mentioned, but I think I see the patterned belt going down towards the shoe of the son, while the patterned border of the mantle curves to the right. Aenor, this may show a hidden belt at the hip with only the part hanging down the front showing. The gown also appears very full at the bottom with an apparent train.
“Graf Siboto, the husband, has long curly hair and is wearing a patterned hat called a birett in the description. He also is wearing a violet gown, with a patterned border. He also has a red mantle, and special attention is given to his patterned (!) leg coverings. Over his head is written: D(OMI)N(U)S SIBOTO COMES.
“The last person is another son of Grafen Siboto, also wearing a violet gown with an agraffe and a red mantle, and patterned leg coverings as well.”
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #329, November 10, 2002
Loose Hair
“As an example:
http://users.iafrica.com/m/me/melisant/costume/garb2.htm — link broken
“The third picture down on the left (yes don’t worry about the text, and I’m trying to find the source of the picture – it looks English to me, and doesn’t look like a later period copy)
“It depicts two ladies, religious figures judging by the halos. The one on the left wears a veil, but the one on the right just wears an elaborately bound hairstyle. A caption would help a lot, but is she a child, or Mary Magdalene, that she has a halo?
~ Teffania / Tiffany Brown
Message #345, November 17, 2002
“Let’s write the owner of the page to find out where they got it! I’d be thinking that it came from the sources listed on the
bottom… I think the lady with the censor is rather interesting –
I don’t think I’ve seen a woman with a censor in medieval
illuminations before. That seems to imply a woman that served in
the church. Hmmm.
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #347, November 17, 2002
“It’s Mary Magdalene. I think the original (or one copied from the same source) is in the Winchester bible. the version I have came with a caption.”
~ Rowena / Brenda Sibly
Message #349, November 17, 2002
“That makes sense! She seems to be in distress, and I know that at least 16th century depictions of her usually show some state of being ‘undone’ including hair and sometimes garments – I often look at them carefully in terms of finding clues to undergarments.”
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #350, November 17, 2002
“Is Mary Magdalene one of the “three mary’s”? (if so I’m thinking it’s interesting she’s depicted as modestly as the other marys so often).
~ Teffania / Tiffany Brown
Message #351, November 17, 2002
“She is sometimes depicted in groupings around the bottom of the cross, often with hands/arms outstretched, crying. In the 16th century in Germany she is normally depicted outside of the previous scene in the highest fashion of clothing holding a covered cup. She is also the one seen in portraits of drying Christ’s feet with her hair.”
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #352, November 17, 2002
Back Lacing?
“A detail of a capital from the church of the Annunciation at Nazareth, showing the miracles of St Bartholomew. Supposedly this is the devil is twisting the arms of the daughter of King Polyrunius, (The devil poisoned her and St Bartholomew healed her)
“I’ve been wondering for some time what is going on with the folds and lines down the back of the garment, is this supposed to indicate back lacing? Is it purely an artistic embellishment? However recently I’ve been playing about with bias cutting. I tried on my new bias cut underdress and when I looked at the back of it in the mirror I was struck by the way the fabric pulls and drags very much like it does in this example.”
~ Katrine, on behalf of Rowena
Message #381, November 23, 2002
Piacenza
“I made a trip to the library last night and scanned a couple of interesting Italian images from the cathedral of Piacenza, Italy, a little south of Milan. It was started in 1122.
“The first image link below is of Saint Margaret. I find her wrapped braids, the long belt and her headress interesting. It also is a very good depiction of the maunch sleeve.
“The second image link below is of Saint Justina. I found the method of belt tying and the fringing on the ends of the belt most intriguing. I would guess that it is a tablet woven belt with the ends divided into three and finished with a bauble or a tassle of some sort (a pom-pom?)
“The book details:
Studien zur Geschichte der Europäischen Skulptur im 12./13. Jahrhundert
by Herbert Beck and Kerstin Hengevoss-Dürkop, 1994,
ISBN 3-921606-25 (Studies on the History of European Sculpture in
the 12th and 13th century).
It is a 2 volume set with good quality black and white photos, text volume 1, plates volume 2.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/Italian%
20Styles/sculpture1.jpg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/files/Italian%
20Styles/sculpture2.j.p
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #382, November 23, 2002
“Ohh, it’s a double ended fighters belt knot!”
~ Rowena / Brenda Sibly
Message #383, November 23, 2002