Shoulder Seams
(Original Subject line:
“Another Bliaut Question”)
Marguerite and others who use
the straight grain bodice pattern,
Do you find that you need to trim the shoulders in at all?
Marguerite, your handout mentions trimming in the waist area slightly, but did you leave the shoulders square or trim them in? To get the bodice big enough to fit around my chest, the shoulder seams then hang down below the point of my shoulders by a couple of inches. If you don’t trim the shoulders in, where do you adjust the sleeve length – at the shoulder, or at the end?
Also, how big do you make the square sleeve gores? I made mine 11 inches square, because I have short arms, but at least right now, not on the gown, they don’t look big enough.
~ Brangwayna
Message #629, December 31, 2002
Answer #1:
I usually do not have a shoulder seam and extend the shoulder line straight out to mid arm where you see the upper arm band. The weight of the sleeve tends to pull the fabric so it molds my shoulders nicely. I cut the gown out of one long piece of fabric folded into quarters with added gussets at the side.
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #630, December 31, 2002
Answer #2:
No, I leave the shoulders straight.
[Having the seams joining the sleeve to the body a couple inches before the point of the shoulder] is about right for an armscye seam (which is what I’m guessing you are calling a shoulder seam – most people refer to a seam across the shoulder joining two halves of the body section as a shoulder seam) in a rectangularly constructed garment. A dropped shoulder is period, even if it is a little weird to our modern eyes.
The bicep trimming that you see in some examples of period artwork is placed exactly right to cover the seam between the body of the gown and the sleeve piece(s).
If you look at my sleeve cutting theory in the handout, the length [of the sleeve] is dictated by the length of the rectangular section that forms the part of the sleeve that sits along the top of the arm. I tend to make my sleeve section as long as the measure from my wrist to the point of my shoulder, or a little longer if I’m not adding a decorative band.
> And how big do you make the square sleeve gores?
Well, it really depends on how big you want
your sleeves. I’d make them a little bigger (I like big
sleeves), but the extant example of a
sleeve cut this way that I mention in the handout (see the URL below for the latest version) had fairly small points
inserted, about the size you mention or a
little smaller. Conservative sleeves existed.
I’m about 5’6″ tall and I have average
arms, but I made my sleeves on the red
gown actually a bit longer than my arms, not including the decorated strip along the edge(that was about 6″
wide, finished). The size of the square
gore was (I’ve shrunk, and the gown now belongs to another lovely lady of my acquaintance, so I can’t
check it) about 24″- 28″ inches
on a side. They went down to the hem of my gown and sometimes dragged on the ground if I was not careful.
If I needed to get them out of my way, I
pulled them up and turned them back more over
my forearms.
Of my current ones, I have a wine-red rayon one
with sleeve gores about the same size as
the red dress, and my green cashmere one has sleeve gores about 18″-20″ inches on a side, and it’s much
more conservative looking.
Now, if you want to add more oomph to your
sleeves without re-cutting the dress, you
can add a long pendant decorative cuff, which can be either a plain contrast fabric or a decorated
trimming. This was definitely done, as
can be seen in some examples of contemporary artwork. The blue lines in the diagrams for Chartres ladies 1&2
indicate possible cuts for that type of sleeve,
and the “Sketch after a photo of the
Chelles Reliquary” image shows a lady wearing a gown with this sort of sleeve treatment.
Hope this answered some of your questions!
The latest version of my bliaut article is here:
http://jauncourt.i8.com/bliautho.htm
~ Marguerie de Jauncourt / Maura Folsom
Message #623, January 1, 2003
Response to Answers:
Thanks so much for your reply – it really helps to talk to the person who wrote the directions you are working off of!
Yes, an armscye seam. Do you use a shoulder seam as well, or just one long strip of fabric? A lot of my other gowns have dropped shoulders, but they’re not fitted – based of the St Louis shirt. I think it’s the combination of fitting and the dropped shoulder that’s bugging my husband – most of the really fitted stuff he’s done has been either Elizabethan doublets or cotehardies, both of which have “normal” sleeves. He’s really the tailor in the family, and is helping me get the mock-up fitted properly.
“I tend to make my sleeve section as long as the measure from my wrist to the point of my shoulder, or a little longer if I’m not adding a decorative band.”
Well, that’s what I did originally, but as far as the armscye drops on me, I had to cut off about 6 or 8 inches from the rectangular part just to find my hand!
“Conservative sleeves existed.”
Oh, good. I’ve adjusted to skirts to my toes, and veils, and wimples, but I haven’t adjusted to really huge sleeves yet! Just not ready to sit back and let the servants do everything, I guess – I find they get in my way if they are too big.
“I’m about 5’6″ tall and I have average arms, but I made my sleeves on the red gown actually a bit longer than my arms”
Well, I’m under 5′ 2″, and my arm length from point of shoulder to wrist, even with my arm bent, is only 22″ to begin with. I have a lot of trouble with mundane clothes being too long in the sleeve as well. It’s funny; I look at the clothes I make and think that they look like they will never fit, I must have cut them too small, they look like children’s clothes. But they fit, and then I remember that I know 12-year-olds bigger than I am 🙂
~ Brangwayna
Message #635, January 1, 2003
Further Questions:
I got the arms on the mock-up gown last night, and had to adjust the sleeve length considerably due to the fabric hanging down from the bodice – like from 22″ to 14 “! I took it off the shoulder end, and now the square sleeve gore is right where I though it should be 🙂 Doesn’t look like I’ll ever be able to make huge sleeves with this pattern though; I could only add another inch or two to the square before the gore hits my armpit. The curse of short arms!
How big do people make their vertical neck slits? I made mine 15″ long, 10″ in the front and five in the back, and every time I moved, the back of the slit ripped a little further – about an inch longer than I cut it. Now, admittedly, I’m working in rather heavily sized, unwashed muslin, so it’s not draping terribly easily, but should I be making my neck slit longer?
~ Brangwayna
Message #634, January 1, 2003
Answer #3:
I do not use a shoulder seam on v-necked gowns. I cut the body in one long strip of fabric. The shoulder wrinkles that are a characteristic feature (and which seem to help with fitting) don’t happen properly with a seam running through them.
You could probably do a shoulder seam on a gown with a keyhole neckline, though. I would sew and finish that seam and then put in the keyhole neckline, then complete the construction of the gown.
> I think it’s the combination of fitting and the dropped shoulder that’s bugging my husband – most of the really fitted stuff he’s done has been either Elizabethan doublets or cotehardies, both of which have “normal” sleeves.
Well, the difference here is not that the garments *are* fitted, but in the *methods* of fitting. I can definitely see why they would look weird to your sweetie. 🙂 It’s a point-of-view thing. He’s used to the set-in type of sleeve which evolved mostly to make cotehardies fit the way they do, and so a dropped shoulder reads as wrong to him. It’s perfectly natural for him to see it that way, given what he’s worked on.
These garments, being earlier, and being part of the ancient tradition of rectangular construction, are fitted not by cutting (except in that the rectangles are cut to the height and width of the wearer), but by the lacing of the sides. The resultant look won’t fit with the modern idea of fitted clothing (which is not altogether different from fitted cotes or Elizabethan), though it does fit to
the body – the fitting is achieved more through fabric give and tension than any actual cut.
> Well, I’m under 5′ 2″, and my arm length from point of shoulder to wrist, even with my arm bent, is only 22″ to begin with.
Ahhh. Sounds like you are learning to adapt cutting a Norman gown to the needs of a curvy petite lady! Big sleeves are possible for you, but you may have to do other methods to get them, like adding a shorter, triangular gore (like the ones that go in the skirt) to the top of the sleeve. That’s basically what is shown in my theoretical sketch for the Queen of Sheba bliaut – all the length and fullness, but done differently so that your arms aren’t overwhelmed.
I wish I had instructions for the method that Bonassias (my sewing buddy and student who has outstripped her teacher!) came up with to do the waterfall sleeve, because it makes big, drapey sleeves, using geometric construction, that don’t cover the hands of the wearer. I have a diagram that she drew, somewhere… if only I knew where. I do remember that it is mostly an expansion of the cut I mention above, but the particulars are lost. Another note, if you want to experiment – these sleeves seem to take better to being knotted than the sleeves with decorated bands.
>How big do people make their vertical neck slits?
The BEST way to determine the necessary size of
your neck slit is to do exactly what you are doing with
the mockup. It will make itself the right
size in the end. About 6″ down the back is where mine ‘likes’ to end, and about 9″ to 12″
down the front (depending on the cloth
the gown is made of and how well it takes the tension of my bustline).
Hope I helped, it’s pretty late here and I may
have been less coherent than I meant to
be. I’m doing email because I’m (probably) in
early stage labor, the kind that can go on for a week, and I can’t sleep normally while I feel like I’m doing involuntary
situps…
~ Marguerie
de Jauncourt / Maura Folsom
Message #638, January 2, 2003