(A compendium of information from discussions on the 12th Century Garb Yahoo Group list)
“Kirdle or Bliaut?”
Q: “Can anyone tell me how to make a gown where its tight fitted in the bodice and upper hips, then flares out thereafter and also has a slight train. I’ve searched pattern stores and also historical pattern companies for this gown pattern, maybe I’m looking for the wrong thing. Basically I can’t figure out how to get all that gathering into the skirt without pleating it or having many gores. I’ve read that medieval gowns had maybe 4 pieces, but never princess seem, is this correct? The manuscripts paintings may be depicting them differently than they really were constructed, I don’t know.
“Any information would really be appreciated.”
~ Sandy
Message #255, September 29, 2002
A#1: “I’ll try and break my thoughts down into snippets:
“Commercial patterns:
“I’ve never heard of a commercial pattern for a bilaut. Medieval techniques of construction lend themselves to instructions on how to make such a dress, not patterns. A princess line dress (commercial pattern) is not period for the 12th century, but it probably is about as close as you can get in a commercial pattern. It looks quite medieval to the undeducated eye. For a great period set of illustrated instructions (pattern), look at Marjorie de jancourt’s handout on this list’s website.
“Number of Pieces in Medieval Gowns:
“Many pieces could be used in medieval gowns, however not in the modern manner. Before the 12th century dresses were generally (to the best of my knowledge) a square piece for the body with gores from the hips to add flare. i.e. only a front and back piece, essentially unshaped.
“By the 14th century, a number of innovations had occurred – the set in sleeve, and long gores from the floor to the armpit are found in dresses for Greenland. many panels might be used, however the main piece of the body was still basically a rectangle. A fair bit of fitting can be made in this style, however the Greenland dresses are a) 200 years later and b)from the isolated colony of Greenland, not England/mainland Europe.
“12th century gowns probably fall somewhere in between. They probably
don’t have set in sleeves, they probably don’t have side gores, but at
least some definately have lacing up the sideseams of the dress. This may
be enough to make the dress fit fairly tightly across the bodice.
“Making a Dress Flare Out at the Hips:
“… is really just a matter of having more bigger, wider gores.
“There are some obscure 12th century carvings also from Greenland showing several gores pleated into a side seam. a) this is totally different from mainland fashion, and b) it’s not a particularly flattering look.
“There is a suggestion the Chartres cathedrals may have a primitive form of smocking. In this case take a body piece much wider than you need, and where the smocking ends the material will fall in folds rather like pleats I think (well, I have no idea, really).
“Trains:
“I haven’t seen any period pictures of trains. They hang in the mud and are hard to dance in, and people keep stepping on them and nearly yanking holes in your dress. (trust me)
Mind you I’m sure there could well have been period trains – please show us a picture if you have one. There are also less pictures of this period than others, so it’s always possible things may have been poorly documented.
“A Note on Manuscripts:
“Don’t trust 18th century copies, costume books etc. They draw beautiful fantasy costumes. If you want to impress your friends with a pretty dress, use this as your source. For authentic period manuscript pictures, look at the website for pictures and a bibliography. Not nearly so pretty, but more authentic.
“I’m not trying to disillusion you. My first dress was a princess line dress, back laced, with train. I still wear it. It looks pretty. Everyone else at events tells me so. But now every time I look at it I wish I’d had someone to tell me how to do it in a more period manner. Some of my other friends never feel this way though.
“I’m trying to get good resources and links and stuff up on the website for this list. I’m sure other people will send in some links and info too (and maybe they’ll put it up on the website too – hint hint – 🙂 )”
~ Teffania
(who still wants someone to tell her how to do it properly)
Message #256, September 29, 2002
A#2:
“My take on the dress you describe…
“There are many dresses in the 12th C. that ‘aren’t ‘ Bliauts. I have made some very nice tight laced gowns with very full skirts that look like the carvings and paintings. The trick is the gores. It is perfectly appropriate to add gores to front, back and both sides to get a fuller skirt. The trick is to add them right at the hips, not above, so they flare
out after the hips. I am a fairly full figured woman and have had good luck with fitting the bodice by making the dress in 4 pieces, plus gores. there is enough adjusting you can do by taking in the sides and front to make a well-fitting bodice without having to use princess seams.
“There was a TI article a few years ago on an 11th C. gown from an ivory carving that was made this way- pretty much your standard T tunic but seamed down front and back as well. This makes adding the front and back gores easier, too.
“As for the lacing, I have found in my gowns that back lacing works the best (as opposed to side) to keep the bodice smooth because you lace a flat area as opposed to curves. Of course there are plenty of pictures of wrinkly bodices too, which might be caused by side lacing. Don’t use boning in your lacing- I get the best flat seams that close tight by making a facing out of a few layers of stiff fabric and placing lacing holes close together- no
more than 1 cm apart or so. Also, you want to lace in an “around and around” manner instead of the criss-cross method that we are used to in the modern world.
“I don’t recall seeing any trains in this century, mainly longer skirts that “puddle ” on the ground about 4″ or more, which when walking do tend to look like a train. Both 12th and 13th c. dresses do this. (not always, but most of the time I would say.)
“hey- am I right that a “kirtle” means “dress” and can be many different things? Can’t remember where I heard that- don’t have my books handy to look it up.
~ Aénor d’Anjou / mka Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #258, September 30, 2002
An Alternate Pleating Technique
“I was in Borders this afternoon and picked up a never seen before magazine called “Belle Armoire” (August 2002 issue) which is about wearable art. What really caught my attention was an article on the Japanese art of Shibori, which includes pleating and pleat arrangement as well as special effect fabric resist dyeing (Japanese tie dye). There were nice diagrams on how to pleat fabric in different directions – one method was to tie the fabric around a pole.”
For more information on shibori:
http://www.shibori.org
~ Katrine / Katherine Barich
Message #290, October 12, 2002
Ruching & the defination of a “Bliaut”
“I am working up a new way to make my maunch sleeve dresses– has anyone done much with the scrunching up of extra fabric into the sides to make the wrinkles across the belly? What about tight lacing up the back that leaves the wrinkles?
“The tight gowns that I made fit me smoothly. I guess I fit them too well?!”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / mka Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #294, October 14, 2002
“From what I understand, one of the ladies on this list says the wrinkles come from side lacing…”
~ Mór ingen Cathail
Message #295, October 14, 2002
“It would seem so but there are a few paintings that clearly show the sides of the gown, and if there were really all that much bunching up, I would thing that the artists would show something to this effect- something like the men’s tunics always show the bulge of where the braies are tied on with a big knot.”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / mka Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #297, October 14, 2002
“If it is a bliaut of which you speak, then yes the wrinkles come from side lacings. The bodice is traditionally about twice as long as the normal bodice measurement, cut on a bias, and the garment is laced at both sides. The lacings gather the bodice to the appropriate length. This makes the wrinkles you describe.”
~ Katerina la Bisbetica / Denise Puglino Stout
Message #296, October 14, 2002
“I am not talking about the Bliaut.
“Forgive this bit of rant about to happen- it is not directed at you- just
the universe in general !:
“There are More than One style of dress worn in the 12th C.!!!!!!! Bliauts were worn for only 20 years !!! what about the rest of the time~!!!!!
“Sorry! Sometimes I think that so many people think that this was the only thing. I have been doing 12 c for 10 years or so, strictly (with a rare jaunt to 11th or 13th ) and have only worn 2 bliauts out of my many dresses. I have been making the tightly fitting in the bodice dresses that you see in many illuminations and carvings, but until now have fit them pretty smoothly. I am finally taking the plunge to make the wrinkles.
“I believe rather strongly that the lacing does not have to be only at the sides to create this effect, and just wondered if anyone else has tried to do it. It works if you lace at sides and elongate the torso of the gown a little- (5” or so, maybe a little more- don’t need near as many wrinkles as the bliaut) but I wondered if you would need to elongate the torso to lace at back- what would it do.
“Well- i have some experimenting to do!”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / mka Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #298, October 14, 2002
“Yes, I agree, there are more fashion styles in the 12th century – however, the original post was not that detailed in question. Therefore, when one refers to “the wrinkles” I think one may safely assume bliaut. I saw no reference in the question to any other style of dress.
“I’ve been doing this for about the same length of time and I only have 2-3 bliauts myself. Frankly, it’s no wonder they didn’t last very long, they are a pain in the arse to make! and the bunching gets very annoying after a while, if you are a large chested woman. JMO”
~ Katerina la Bisbetica / Denise Puglino Stout
Message #299, October 14, 2002
“At the risk of being howled down for sacrilege:
“Perhaps we are just seeing a Romanesque way of portraying people, and there weren’t really wrinkles, or certainly not on most garments?”
~ Teffania / Tiffany Brown
Message #306, October 16, 2002
“The dress: I gave it a go with the back lacing and found that if you add about 4” length to the tight fitted bodice before the hips flare out, and then lace it, you have to bunch the fabric a little at the laces but not too bad, and you can lace it in the back and get the correct placement of wrinkles, as you can with lacing at the side as well. The trick is to narrow very quickly just under the breasts and stay narrow until just below the hips so the hip fabric has to hike up to the waist a little.
“So for my vigil underdress I am doing white linen laced at the sides with small wrinles, and the overgown is purple maunch with lacing at the back so the skin wont show through. (although I think there are some literary references to this, but I would think it unseemly.)”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / mka Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #315, October 17, 2002
Maunch Sleeves
Q1: Still in quest of a simple pattern for maunch sleeves. Now, they’re tight to the elbow & then open up dramatically, right? How do I get the lower part to look right?
A: “There are many types of maunch sleeves. Some patterns just cut up from the corner to the waist, turn up a little , then across for the arm briefly, and back down, so all you cut out and waste is a tear-drop shape right at the underarm.
“The Maunch dresses in the Winchester bible are more “boat” shaped- you have a tight fitting upper arm, and then about half-way from wrist to elbow you drop straight down for about 3′ and then end by making a small curve to a perpendicular line at the bottom of the maunch. This is the part that looks like a boat prow. Hard to describe! It pretty much ends in a 90 degree angle that is rounded.
“This type also shows up in shorter sleeves. These gowns can be laced tight or worn loosely. There is an early 12th c German gown that has the shorter maunch sleeves that are obviously lined with thin stuff that billows out a little as if the lining didn’t fit, and has a shorter hem lined with heavy trim, over a longer gown.”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #368, November 20, 2002
Q2: what’s
up with tippets? Are they cut as part of the sleeve or are they a separate strip added later?
“Yes to both, if you are referring to tippets on cotehardies. I have seen them both ways.
“Have you ever seen the gown from 1180 or so that has tippets at the cuff? They look like really long neck ties. I believe they are the end of the maunch and precursor to the tippet. I have it on a reliquary casket with a troubadour.”
~ Aénor d’Anjou / Kirsten Wienand Vaughan
Message #369, November 20, 2002
Bias Cut
“Well, I haven’t used bias cut for 12thc, but I did a plaid cotehardie on the bias—it takes a LOT of fabric. Bias cutting is, and always has been wasteful. And it doesn’t seem to jive with the usual ways of cutting in period.
~ Jessamyn di Piemonte / Grace Morris
Message #402, November 30, 2002
“Well, um actually, no. I’m getting bias cut chemises with a half circle skirt and bodice, out of 3 yards of 60 inch fabric, with next to no waste.
“So exactly which “usual ways of cutting in period” are you talking about? When? where?
“The look you get with a bias cut jives so closely with the effects you see in the illustrations that I think we need some good evidence before saying that isn’t how it’s done.”
~ Rowena / Brenda Sibly
Message #404, November 30, 2002